1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,600 And now, ladies and gentlemen, the Alan Douglas Show. 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,720 If you tend to listen to radio conversation programs, and if you're listening to this 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:18,760 one, then probably you have the habit, you've heard the airwaves crackle again and again 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,000 with talk about unidentified flying objects. 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,440 Talk about UFOs is like a kind of recurrent epidemic. 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,080 The rash keeps breaking out time and time again. 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:34,960 This thing in my recollection began back in 1946, and it took a couple of years to get 8 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:35,960 into full swing. 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:42,600 By 48, flying saucers, the pre-Air Force term for those unexplainable heavenly lights, 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,720 had become front-page news. 11 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:50,000 If I recall correctly, the press and the radio then treated UFO stories with a kind of a 12 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,160 tongue-in-cheek style. 13 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:55,720 Flying saucers, after all, made pretty good copy when you were in short of Capitol Hill 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,760 scandals or a good hot election or a decent society murder. 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,440 In the past 20 years, though, I seem to sense that the press attitude has changed. 16 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:11,800 For one thing, UFO stories, by and large, don't get to the front page too much anymore 17 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:17,800 if they do the follow-up stories drop fast to page 3 or 6 or 16. 18 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,840 And the style seems to me to be down the middle, straight reporting. 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:27,880 Unlike the era of the late 40s and the 50s, it now seems that a body can conceivably report 20 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:34,040 an encounter with an unidentified flying object or a sighting, and suffer relatively little 21 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:35,040 repercussion. 22 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:39,840 It is now apparent that reports about UFOs are not going to stop, and therefore it's 23 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,560 logical to assume that the seeing of flying saucers is not a fad like the swallowing of 24 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,640 goldfish or marathon dancing or any of those common-goal crazes that are peculiar to each 25 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:50,640 generation. 26 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:57,480 The rash of UFO sightings and encounters continues and intensifies in some pretty impressive, 27 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,000 some pretty logically-minded men are concerned about it. 28 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,440 Frank Edwards, a veteran Washington newsman, a man who has earned his reputation and his 29 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:11,600 livelihood from his ability to collect and evaluate pure fact, is concerned about it. 30 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:17,800 And he's written an excellent book on the subject of UFOs, and with it, he is now the 31 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,800 nation's coveted top ten best-selling book list for nonfiction. 32 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,520 And you don't get there by accident. 33 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:29,480 It takes some talent, and it takes some fact, and it takes some ability as a writer, I might 34 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:30,480 add. 35 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,680 His book is called Flying Saucers Are Serious Business. 36 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,760 Earl Neff, who's appeared with us on radio several times in the past, as well as on contact, 37 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:45,520 which preceded me on WKYC, now devotes full energies to lecturing and writing on the subject 38 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:46,520 of UFOs. 39 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:51,040 And if you've heard Earl on the radio before, you know he's no fattest, no offbeat character. 40 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,360 He's a very intelligent, very curious, I think rather conservative man. 41 00:02:55,360 --> 00:03:00,180 And I suspect that he doubts UFO stories to a greater degree than most of us until he 42 00:03:00,180 --> 00:03:02,160 digs out the fact from the fantasy. 43 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,360 And then, after he's got the fact straight, only then does he form his opinion. 44 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,360 So I think we have some rather serious-minded men with us tonight. 45 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,720 Let me say, Frank Edwards, I've read your book, I've read part of your book. 46 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:14,720 I just started it this weekend. 47 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:15,720 This is a book I have to finish. 48 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,080 And I said before we went on the air, I just want to say it again. 49 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,480 I said it to you before we went on so that you know I meant it. 50 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,960 And I'll say it again so the audience can hear it. 51 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:30,520 I was really hooked by this book, particularly the way it started. 52 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,800 You get right to the crux of the matter, and in one big hurry. 53 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,680 You're not only an interesting writer, but you raise some very alarming points. 54 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,680 Thank you, sir. 55 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:42,680 Particularly. 56 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:48,880 Well, you just cite one instance after another, and you tend to put down the Air Force. 57 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,240 You tend to put them down pretty hard. 58 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,240 What now they feel about you? 59 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,240 They don't like me. 60 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:59,240 As a matter of fact, they like me so little they once got me kicked off the network. 61 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,600 Oh, yes, night 54. 62 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,800 I have the story documented and spelled out in detail in the book. 63 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:15,480 I exposed some of the methods by which they were operating at that time, and I exposed 64 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,560 the gross fallacies and the statements they were offering to the public. 65 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,600 And so they put the pressure on my sponsors, a labor organization. 66 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:31,560 They put the pressure on them by giving a lot of big fat contracts to non-union outfits. 67 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,760 And of course, this was hitting the sponsor right where they lived. 68 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,720 And this couldn't go on very long, and it didn't. 69 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,720 So I lost 10 million sponsors in one night. 70 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,880 Probably the only guy in the history of the broadcasting business who ever lost 10 million 71 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,520 sponsors in one night, Alan. 72 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,840 If my attention seemed to be drifting from when I was just going down our list of sponsors 73 00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:54,480 tonight, and just checking things out, right? 74 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,480 You won't buy the Air Force. 75 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,480 No, it's a matter of fact. 76 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:00,480 At least after tonight. 77 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:01,480 I don't know. 78 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,480 The Air Force doesn't sponsor me. 79 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,960 If they did, I might be in more trouble than I am at the moment. 80 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,960 Listen, I want to be sure and mention one of the big reasons that you're in Cleveland. 81 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:13,960 You're in Cleveland to sell your book. 82 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,960 And the book I might add is published by Lyle Stewart. 83 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:22,960 I personally recommend it for anybody that wants an interesting, fascinating reading 84 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:28,960 on a subject that has not bugged me to the extent that it does now, since I began reading 85 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:29,960 your book. 86 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:31,960 I'm more bugged than I was. 87 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,960 I was concerned and curious, and I have been known to say on the radio that I believe 88 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:41,960 that it would be irreverent of any of us to assume that there's nothing out there, or 89 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:43,960 that there could be nothing out there. 90 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,960 I personally have never been blessed with a sighting. 91 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,960 But on the other hand, I'm not so irreverent as to suppose that it couldn't be a superior 92 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:57,960 intelligence, one more capable than we are technologically, out there somewhere in the 93 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:58,960 heavens. 94 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,960 But this book really brings all of us into focus. 95 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:07,960 And I was particularly concerned with some of your research into the past. 96 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:09,960 For example, the Alexander Hamilton story. 97 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,960 And I'd love to have you tell that to us, if you would. 98 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,960 This goes back to when, 1897? 99 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:16,960 1897, yes. 100 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:23,960 There was a wealthy farmer who was also a very prominent citizen of the state of Kansas, 101 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:28,960 a member of the state legislature, and very well known throughout the state. 102 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,960 He lived at the little town of Leroy, Kansas. 103 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:40,960 And in 1897, one night, he heard quite a rumpus in the cattle lot, and he's supposed that maybe 104 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,960 one of his dogs was out there harassing the cattle. 105 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,960 He jumped up, and his son, who was a teenage boy at the time, got up with him. 106 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,960 And they could hear all this noise out there. 107 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:57,960 And just to be on the safe side, they grabbed the nearest substitute for a weapon that they had, 108 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,960 a couple of double-bitted axes. 109 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:05,960 And they got the hired man up, and he grabbed an axe, and they all went back there. 110 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,960 And they all signed an affidavit the following day. 111 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,960 And they said that as they approached the cattle lot and came around behind the big barns, 112 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:24,960 they saw a durable-shaped thing which was red in color, and it had some sort of a cabin 113 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:30,960 hanging beneath it and some kind of a big wheel below the cabin, which was turning slowly. 114 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:35,960 And in the cabin, through the transparent windows in this brightly-lighted cabin, 115 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:42,960 they could see small human-like creatures, which they said were, by their standards and opinions, hideous. 116 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:49,960 And these creatures seemed to be excitedly talking to each other, although they could not hear what they were saying, 117 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,960 the farmer and his men. 118 00:07:51,960 --> 00:08:00,960 They found that one of his yearling cattle had a noose around its neck, and the noose was caught in a fence, 119 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:07,960 or the cable was caught in a fence, and the cable went from the fence to the cabin underneath this craft, 120 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,960 whatever it was, and the craft was obviously trying to lift this heifer. 121 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,960 They were trying to steal it, or just take it, I guess you'd say. 122 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:17,960 Maybe they were collecting samples. 123 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:19,960 Weren't they just lifting it? 124 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:21,960 They were trying to, yeah, literally. 125 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,960 The hired man ran over to try to chop the cable in two. 126 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:32,960 He accidentally cut the fence in two, and the thing took off with the heifer dangling by the neck beneath it. 127 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:34,960 They found it the following day. 128 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:41,960 They found the hide-and-hoofs and tail in a wheat field about seven miles away. 129 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,960 Frank's been talking all day. 130 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,960 When these fellas land, I hope they have a cure for the common cold. 131 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:48,960 I doubt it. 132 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:49,960 It's not a big matter. 133 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,960 They may have a few things we don't want. 134 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:58,960 It was curious to me in 1897 that this thing was as carefully documented as it was. 135 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:07,960 As you probably noticed in the book, I carry all the list of all the bankers and doctors and lawyers 136 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:14,960 and newspaper editors and everybody else who signed the affidavit that they were familiar with the character 137 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:23,960 and reputation of the men involved, including Mr. Hamilton, and also with the other details of the case itself. 138 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:30,960 Because when the hide-and-hoofs were found, it was easy to identify them by, of course, by the brand. 139 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:38,960 So I thought this was one of the best documented cases and certainly one of the most bizarre cases that I ever ran across 140 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,960 in this 20 years of research in this field. 141 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:49,960 No. You mentioned in your book that in that year, earthbound dirgeables were not that unusual. 142 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,960 I guess there were some experiments going on in France, wasn't it? 143 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,960 No. The zeppelins never came along. 144 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:07,960 There were a few specimens extant in Europe, but they were very underpowered and they could not possibly have crossed the... 145 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:09,960 They certainly couldn't have come over here. 146 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:15,960 Also mentioned, I guess, as an aftermath of that story, the mystery that surrounded that case 147 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,960 and the remains of this young heifer were found, what, some three, four, five miles away? 148 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:27,960 Several miles away in the middle of a wheat field and there was no indication at all that they had been carried there. 149 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,960 They had obviously been dropped there because there were no tracks through the wheat 150 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,960 which would certainly have been there had anyone walked through it. 151 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:43,960 No. Here's something I haven't, as you had arrived at in your book, and I'm reading it with the kind of time that I have 152 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,960 and the other reading that I have to do, but this is one book I want to stay with. 153 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:57,960 Please tell me in advance though. There was a period of some 20 years, you say, between 1926 and 1946 when there were no sightings. 154 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:09,960 Well, there was a period from about 26 to 46 when I have been unable to find any evidence of any sightings 155 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,960 of objects that could be included in this UFO group. 156 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:20,960 Well, why do you suppose that 20-year period went by? Have you formed any opinion about it? 157 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:28,960 Yes, I have. I think that the reason was, in 26 we had some fairly good heavier-than-air flying machines. 158 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:34,960 In fact, they seemed to be better than the objects that could not be identified, 159 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,960 but until the operators of these things could come up with something better than we had. 160 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:41,960 We think it had to be better? 161 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:50,960 Well, I'll tell you, Alan, if we go to another planet and find it inhabited, as we probably will do someday, 162 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:55,960 we will want to be very certain that whatever we're traveling around there in is better than anything that they've got 163 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,960 before we go in close enough and discover that we have become samples or specimens. 164 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:01,960 That's an interesting question. 165 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:07,960 And I think this is what happened in our case. They had these cumbersome, dirigible-shaped things. 166 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,960 They were not as good as our heavier-than-air craft, so they simply disappeared. 167 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:17,960 But when they came back 20 years later in 1946, they had these so-called flying saucers, 168 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,960 which were far better than anything that we have, that we have to this day, as a matter of fact. 169 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:29,960 Seems strange to me. The thing that I have difficulty with is understanding how extraterrestrial intelligence 170 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:38,960 or intelligences could conceive a craft that would fly through space and arrive at this planet 171 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:46,960 and then would find itself unable to negotiate the Earth's atmosphere and to fly through the Earth's atmosphere 172 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:54,960 with the same ability that the biplanes had. It seems a little strange, but on the other hand, 173 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,960 the whole thing is strange, so I don't know why I find that difficult to believe. 174 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:02,960 In a moment, I want to ask Frank Edwards, and we have Frank Edwards with us tonight, 175 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,960 who is the author of Flying Saucers, a serious business-time magazine, 176 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:07,960 number what, seven or six? 177 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:08,960 Six now. 178 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,960 Number six on the nonfiction best-selling list. 179 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,960 On page 81, in one issue, they blasted me, and on page four, 180 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,960 the same issue they promoted me from tenth to sixth place. 181 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,960 There seems to be no relationship between their reviews and the status of the book. 182 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,960 I look at Harold Robbins, who I don't think has ever had a good review from Time Magazine. 183 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:36,960 I don't want to compare you to Harold Robbins, of course, but he seems to get up there pretty fast. 184 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,960 I don't think they have much to say good about the Valley of the Dolls either, 185 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,960 which has been on the number one spot in fiction, I guess. 186 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,960 Oh, months and months and months. 187 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,960 It's going to get a record if it keeps going. 188 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,960 With us also is Mr. Earl Neff. 189 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:57,960 Mr. Neff is a lecturer and a ufologist, a writer who's coming out with a book of his own very shortly. 190 00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:58,960 Friday. 191 00:13:58,960 --> 00:13:59,960 Friday it comes out. 192 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:07,960 It's a compilation of UFO evidence, a very interesting book that Earl has put together. 193 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:14,960 We'll talk about that, and we'll also get to this question that I want to ask Mr. Edwards. 194 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:23,960 This has to do with the blackout situation last year and some of the reported blackouts in the past. 195 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,960 Some very curious, curious information comes to us by way of Mr. Edwards' book, 196 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:40,960 which gets back into that blackout controversy of last year, and it wasn't anywhere near as much of a controversy as it apparently begins to be in Frank's book. 197 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,960 Frank Edwards just autographed a book for Earl Neff, 198 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,960 and it reads, don't read this book after dark. 199 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,960 We will, we'll get to these questions in just a moment. 200 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:50,960 Frank, you all right now? 201 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:56,960 42 years in the broadcasting business, and I forget to look out for the open mic. 202 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:57,960 You know, Alan? 203 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:58,960 32 years this year, really. 204 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:00,960 Well, it's kind of a novel experience. 205 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:02,960 When I get accustomed to it, I'll be all right. 206 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,960 You know, Alan, when Frank arrived here this afternoon, he called me. 207 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,960 He said, this is Frank, and I said, Frank, who? 208 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,960 I couldn't recognize the voice, and you know, the first thing you knew, I was talking just like he was. 209 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:16,960 I was catching it. 210 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:18,960 He's got a deathbed. 211 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,960 Well, Frank was down at the Higbee Company this day, and he'd been talking all day long. 212 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:30,960 As a matter of fact, I was over there too, working another part of the showroom, and I could hear him, and he was doing great. 213 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:36,960 And he had everybody all still bound, and I don't know how long a man could go, you know, without beginning to run out of voice. 214 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,960 Even a man as strong and as capable as Frank Edwards. 215 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:45,960 And when so notable a personage as Mr. Edwards comes into town, we're delighted to have him. 216 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,960 Now, let's get to this blackout business, Frank. 217 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:50,960 Where would you like to start at? 218 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,960 I'd like to start last fall, 1965, with East Coast Blackout. 219 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:55,960 November the 9th. 220 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:56,960 Yeah. 221 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:04,960 Well, when that thing happened, the organization of which I'm one of the members of the Board of Governors, NYCAP, 222 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,960 which I'm sure Earl has often mentioned here on this show, 223 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,960 this is the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. 224 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:19,960 We immediately got in touch with some of our members and consultants up in that part of the country, 225 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:25,960 but particularly at the universities around Syracuse and Ithaca and up in there. 226 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:37,960 And we had them get on the job right now to determine whether or not there was any real evidence of any UFO activity there at the time of the blackout. 227 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,960 Now, there were some UFOs in the area, a couple at least. 228 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,960 One of them was pictured on the front page of the Syracuse paper the next day, 229 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:54,960 but there was absolutely no evidence to connect the UFOs with the big blackout. 230 00:16:54,960 --> 00:17:05,960 Now, I know this is at variance with a statement that is sometimes credited to me and always credited to a fellow who has written another UFO book, 231 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:12,960 but I repeat that there was no evidence that NYCAP's consultants could find 232 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:18,960 that would indicate that the UFOs had any part in that particular blackout, the big one, 233 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:24,960 although they have very definitely been important factors in some other blackouts, 234 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,960 but not in the big one of last November the 9th. 235 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,960 But there were many fireball sightings? 236 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,960 Oh yes, yes. There were some fireball sightings. 237 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,960 But none of these objects that were sighted up there on that particular night, Alan, 238 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,960 were where they could have caused the blackout. 239 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:55,960 It apparently was exactly what it was described as being, a breakdown of some very delicate and intricate machinery and equipment that just simply didn't function properly, 240 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:03,960 and as a result it spread rapidly from one place to another until it just paralyzed that whole New England area. 241 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:13,960 But at NYCAP we are confident that the UFOs did not play an important part in that one at all. 242 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:19,960 Then there was just an atmosphere of what hysteria about the stories and there were these stories that... 243 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:25,960 Unfortunately there were some people peddling these stories and some who should have known better. 244 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:38,960 And I know that one newspaper ran an eight column banner head in which they said that the UFOs had caused this 245 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,960 and they quoted a guy who professed to be a UFO authority. 246 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:49,960 Well if he was a UFO authority he was more of an authority on UFOs than he was on truth 247 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,960 because there was absolutely nothing to his story, whatever. 248 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,960 But personally I never heard of the guy before or since which is alright with me. 249 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:03,960 Well now how do you distinguish between fact and fantasy? 250 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:09,960 You've got a tremendous amount of fact in this book and you write beautifully about it. 251 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,960 But how do you determine the difference between what is valid and what's not? 252 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,960 How does Frank Edwards make this decision? 253 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:23,960 Well in the book now you must remember that in this new book of mine that is really the result of twenty years of study and research. 254 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,960 And certain patterns develop Alan. 255 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:34,960 You soon realize that there are certain things that are true of these UFOs and certain things that are not true of them. 256 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:43,960 So when somebody comes up with a big story about how they were met by a golden girl in some uranium coveralls out in the edge of the desert 257 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:52,960 and she took them into this thing and they flew to Venus and they came back and this guy goes around making speeches. 258 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,960 Even if you know very little of the fundamentals you would suspect such a story. 259 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:06,960 But if you know the facts you can quickly check out the things that aren't right and which plainly point out to you that the story is full of discrepancies. 260 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,960 The same thing is true of photographs. 261 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:16,960 UFOs have come in a few very easily recognizable shapes and sizes. 262 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:26,960 And when you get these pictures for instance there's one now there's a color photograph being sold supposedly of a UFO. 263 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:33,960 As a matter of fact it's a hubcap suspended from a nylon fish line between two trees. 264 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:41,960 And it's been photographed from different sides and in color and it's being sold to the gullible. 265 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:42,960 But anyone who... 266 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:43,960 How do you tell us a hubcap? 267 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,960 Because I know the guy who did it. 268 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,960 That's very helpful. 269 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,960 But I would have suspected it being a hubcap anyhow. 270 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:59,960 Because the first place, the nature of the photograph makes it suspect. 271 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:03,960 It's too conveniently dangled between two trees. 272 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:05,960 It's too composed. 273 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,960 Yes, it looks like something that just didn't happen. 274 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:10,960 Well you talk about hubcaps. 275 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,960 How about this picture that was taken... 276 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:13,960 The Heflin picture? 277 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,960 Yes, the Heflin picture in Los Angeles County. 278 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,960 Now that doesn't look like a hubcap. 279 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,960 I don't know. 280 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,960 What difference do you draw between this picture and this series of pictures? 281 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:25,960 Is it the guy's story? 282 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,960 Let me explain what the pictures are. 283 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:38,960 On the night of August 2nd and 3rd last year about a quarter of a million people stood out in the open between the Canadian border and the border of Mexico. 284 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,960 And they watched strange lighted objects maneuvering around in the sky. 285 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,960 These things flew around and under and over various commercial planes. 286 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,960 They were photographed in color in black and white. 287 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,960 They were seen on radar. 288 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:54,960 They were tracked. 289 00:21:54,960 --> 00:22:01,960 They were seen by police and airport people and commercial flyers, everybody else. 290 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:11,960 And the following morning this Rex Heflin who is a man with an excellent reputation, he's a minor official in the Los Angeles County Highway Department. 291 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,960 He was driving along on Mitford Road near Santa Ana, California. 292 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,960 He'd gone to photograph the scene of a fatal wreck the night before. 293 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,960 He had a loaded Polaroid camera on the seat of his truck. 294 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:29,960 And he saw this object, this disc shaped thing coming toward him across the field. 295 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,960 It's a very foggy morning or hazy as they call it smoggy, pardon me. 296 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,960 And this thing came and stopped over the road in front of him. 297 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,960 He stopped and he made three pictures in all. 298 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,960 Two, one out the windshield and two out the side door of the truck. 299 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:53,960 The Air Force looked at some copies of the original and they said why this is nothing. 300 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:54,960 Just a hoax. 301 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,960 This man has sailed a half out there and photographed it. 302 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:06,960 Now we got some experts from two of the aviation companies out there and United Press had also done the same thing. 303 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:13,960 We sent men down there with the same equipment to make the same kind of picture under the same conditions. 304 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:21,960 And they found out that you could make that picture by sailing a hat, but the hat had to be slightly larger than a Volkswagen. 305 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,960 That's a pretty big hat. 306 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,960 Frank, I also inject this to Alan. 307 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:33,960 The fact that the radio of Rex's was malfunctioning during that time. 308 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:35,960 Other radars as well. 309 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,960 So that's not a phony picture. 310 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,960 Alan, the important thing in that picture was something that the Air Force didn't mention. 311 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,960 You notice in the first picture where the object is hovering over the shoulder of the road. 312 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,960 You notice the white patch on the shoulder of the road. 313 00:23:49,960 --> 00:24:01,960 Now when you magnify the original picture you can see that this disturbance directly underneath the object is actually consists of particles of dust and gravel and sticks and stuff. 314 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,960 Jumping up in the air about a foot or 15 inches. 315 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:15,960 Now this is a common characteristic of the gravitational disturbance under these UFOs when they are at low altitude. 316 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,960 And it was not mentioned by the Air Force for pretty obvious reasons. 317 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,960 But the minute I saw the picture I looked for that and there it was. 318 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:36,960 Because I have so many reports where highly credible and competent witnesses have noticed this same peculiarity, the same phenomenon under the objects when they're at low altitude. 319 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,960 And there they are in that picture. 320 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:46,960 Now when I look at this picture, I'm not, I can't be absolutely sure that that object is directly over the disturbance on the shoulder of the road. 321 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:55,960 It is not directly over, but a vertical axis through the object goes down toward that, yes. 322 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:05,960 I'd also like to point out that the winds on this particular stretch of countryside near Santa Ana, California are reputedly pretty strong and pretty weird. 323 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:21,960 And I'm not doubting now your belief in this picture, but I would like to point out that apparently the belief that you place in these things must have a great deal to do with the individual who reports that the individual takes the picture. 324 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,960 Yes, very definitely. 325 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,960 Now before the United Press distributed this picture they did two things. 326 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:43,960 They conducted a thorough check into this man's background, his reputation, his standing with his superiors and they checked him out thoroughly and he checked out A1 and then they also checked out the picture and the equipment that was used. 327 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:54,960 And they came to the same conclusion that Nike kept it, that this man photographed something very unusual under the conditions that he described. 328 00:25:54,960 --> 00:26:07,960 So it doesn't seem that a rationally minded, dependable man, a responsible man would driving along the road and the California suddenly stop and do something as kooky as staging a phony UFO picture. 329 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,960 That wouldn't be a good question. 330 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:11,960 I'll buy with that. 331 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:20,960 So I think we ought to credit the Nike people out in that area because Nike happened in case people don't just know what we're talking about. 332 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:31,960 The National Investigations Committee on their phenomena is one of the board members of and they have a very large organization not only this country is represented but all 50 foreign countries. 333 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:41,960 So that naturally when something of this kind happens it's only natural that the people in the area closest are going to check it out. 334 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,960 And again they did that here. 335 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:55,960 And also the Air Force did mention that this picture showed that the man had focused on a closer by object that the distance out of focus this most certainly was not true. 336 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:01,960 The Air Force claimed it was but it's definitely not because I got one of the pictures a minute to get off the wires here. 337 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:12,960 We had some photographic engineers from both North American and Convair out there go out and examine the scene and duplicate and make efforts to duplicate it. 338 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:28,960 And they provided us some with some very thorough but highly technical reports which said that the Air Force summation on this thing was completely invalid because it was at variance with the first laws of optics and also with the known facts in the case. 339 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:50,960 If there is one chapter that is really a cliffhanger and one that I think everybody will find most attractive and most absorbing it's the chapter called who's driving in which you speak of encounters descriptions of encounters of those those creatures inside the machines. 340 00:27:50,960 --> 00:28:00,960 And the thing that really stuck with me one of the striking stories I think is the one of Josep Ponce and Gustavo Gonzalez. 341 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,960 When was this November 28th what year 57 57. 342 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,960 That's a wild story. 343 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,960 Apparently this thing has all kinds of proliferations. 344 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,960 There are people in around the area apparently saw elements of the same thing. 345 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:16,960 Yes. 346 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,960 Very definitely happened in Venezuela. 347 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,960 This was in Venezuela. 348 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,960 Yeah wasn't it wasn't that the one just outside for us to rock that's right. 349 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:24,960 Yes. 350 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,960 Now tell us about that story. 351 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:37,960 Well these two fellows whom you just mentioned were in the vegetable business down there and each morning very early in the morning they would get in their truck. 352 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:46,960 They have a new truck and they'd get in this truck and go out to a little farming community of Pataris which is just outside Caracas. 353 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:52,960 They'd go out there and load up with the vegetables for the market which they would bring in to their customers in the market. 354 00:28:52,960 --> 00:29:07,960 On this particular morning they got into the beautiful residential section of Caracas and they noticed this glowing lighted thing over the road hovering over the road about four or five feet above the road. 355 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,960 Or I should say the street. 356 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:22,960 They got to within about 50 or 60 feet of it with their truck and their engine died on the truck and their lights went out and they could all they could see was this brightly lighted thing motionless there above the street. 357 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:28,960 Well the two of them got out of the truck and walked slowly toward this thing to determine what it was. 358 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,960 They had never seen anything like it before. 359 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:49,960 Suddenly they told police they found themselves set upon by some small man like creatures and one of these men said that he was knocked down and he got to his knee and he was between this creature and the craft or the UFO. 360 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,960 The creature was evidently trying to get by him or get around him to get to the craft. 361 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,960 But he thought it was attacking him and it may have been at any rate. 362 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:07,960 He pulled his knife and as this small man like creature made a lunge at him he stabbed at it with the knife and he tried to stab it in the shoulder. 363 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:18,960 He said he might as well have stabbed a rock because his knife glanced off of it and he said he thought that he was done that this was the end of it. 364 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:29,960 A few seconds later he was scrambling around on his hands and knees there and he saw his partner running down the street away from the scene and he got up and followed him. 365 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,960 They only had to go about three blocks to a police station. 366 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,960 When they got in the police station they were in such a state of shock that the police thought they were drunk. 367 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:45,960 They examined them and tried to talk to them and they finally got them quieted down and took down the details of it and went back down there with them. 368 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:55,960 The truck was sitting there. The lights of the truck were back on but the engine was dead although the ignition was turned on and this object, this UFO, was gone. 369 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:07,960 Well, this would have been just another case had it not been for the fact that one of the best known obstetricians in Caracas had been just about a block behind these men. 370 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,960 He had been to a hospital on a case and was on his way home. 371 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:18,960 He saw their truck stop. He saw the object hovering over the street and he stopped to see what this was all about. 372 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,960 He saw the fight and saw the whole thing and then saw the thing take off. 373 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:31,960 After the men took off for the police station he saw the little fellows, the humanoids get into this craft and saw it take off. 374 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:41,960 He went to the police station and actually got there before these men got away and he examined them and determined for the police that they were not drunk but were in a state of shock. 375 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:51,960 He later gave sworn statements to the government of Venezuela and as I note in the book, very interesting coincidence. 376 00:31:51,960 --> 00:32:04,960 On the following day some of the top newsmen from the United States showed up in Caracas and whether it was mere coincidence or not, I don't know, but it's strange that they should be there. 377 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:14,960 And this doctor, this obstetrician was questioned by a delegation of Air Force intelligence men who were sent to Caracas. 378 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:26,960 He was questioned at great length as were the two truck drivers and the doctor, according to a newspaper in Venezuela, was later flown to this country for further questioning. 379 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:34,960 Now why don't you dig this story up Frank? I had never heard of this but why? This happened in 157? 380 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,960 Why didn't we read about that in this country? 381 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:50,960 That's a very good question and the only ones I know who could answer that question would be the wire services because the story was carried in scores of South American papers and Latin American papers. 382 00:32:50,960 --> 00:33:02,960 I never saw the story carried in any paper in this country and I got the whole story by having the wire service accounts for South America translated. 383 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,960 Well that was not carried here, I don't know. 384 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,960 But you know the closer you get to Cleveland the less you learn about UFOs. 385 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:10,960 What is it? 386 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,960 This has been a known fact because our papers were the first place we don't have any competition here. 387 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:24,960 Years ago we had three papers, the news, the press and the plane dealer. Today we just have two and apparently they're afraid to handle a subject. 388 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:32,960 I've known of very good stories that are handed to the papers by professional writers and they're scared apparently of them or else their censorship or something. 389 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,960 I don't know but the further you get away from Cleveland the more you're likely to find good articles. 390 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:43,960 Well now this is not necessarily due to lack of competition. 391 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:53,960 I live in Indianapolis as you know Earl and we have as little competition in the newspaper business there as you can conceive because there are only two papers 392 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,960 and both of them are owned and operated by the same man. 393 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:17,960 So he has no competition at all but he does a pretty good job of covering the UFO subject and just last week the editor of the evening paper, the Indianapolis News, ran a three column story on the editorial page about a UFO which he and his neighbors had watched the night before. 394 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:24,960 So it must be the difference in coverage, it must be the difference in personalities. 395 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:33,960 The personalities have a big part to play. We have people in this town who would not believe a flying saucer even if it landed on their desk. 396 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:40,960 I mean in the newspapers this I know and all you have to do is read your so-called science columns in your paper and you'll find out. 397 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,960 In other words we have Dr. Menzel as you might say in this area. 398 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,960 Dr. Menzel? 399 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,960 Yes, Menzel was the foremost of the Poo Poo artist you might say of the UFO. 400 00:34:50,960 --> 00:35:01,960 He wrote two books Alan. He wrote two books to prove that there are no such things. In other words he wrote two books about nothing if you don't think so, read them. 401 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:09,960 Frank one time said that he could use the same kind of logic that Menzel uses to prove that he didn't exist. 402 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:17,960 Yes you could use the same kind of treatment that Menzel uses of UFOs to prove that Menzel doesn't exist. 403 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,960 How does books help? 404 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,960 Not very well. 405 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,960 Well of course I'm far beyond the question of men's motives. 406 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:33,960 But on the other hand I guess if you write a book that proves the existence of nothing then one can't expect to do the same thing. 407 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,960 See you as well. 408 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:41,960 I don't know whether that attests to the actual existence of UFOs or not. 409 00:35:41,960 --> 00:36:04,960 But I must say that where something persists from biblical days and there's an early in Frank's book he comes to the Bible and finds references in the Bible which could easily be translated into UFO sightings and associations with creatures from some extra 410 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:12,960 terrestrial source as easily as some of the claims and more easily than some of the claims I have seen put to the Old Testament. 411 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:27,960 Ellen I think the strongest case that I make in the book for the existence of UFOs and their operators is simply the numerous quotations that I have in there from our own government and from other governments. 412 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,960 Pointing out the title of the book is taken from an Air Force Order. 413 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,960 Flying saucers, serious business, that's the title of the Air Force Order. 414 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:45,960 I've got a page in there from an Air Technical Intelligence Manual alerting their people to a new type of UFO coming into use in 1953. 415 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:56,960 I've got statements in there from the British government, from the French, from the government of South Africa, from Argentina, from Chile, from Brazil, all these places. 416 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,960 Official statements on experiences that they've had with UFOs. 417 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,960 It's curious to me that these statements come from people who are in one case retired. 418 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:12,960 Here's the Air Chief Marshal Lord doubting who is the head of the Royal Air Force in World War II. 419 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:19,960 It was quoted by Reuters August of 1954. He said, of course, the flying saucers are real and they're interplanetary. 420 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:25,960 Here is, this is curious, Secretary of the Air Force to Base Commanders 1960. 421 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:31,960 The Air Force maintains a continuous surveillance of the atmosphere near Earth for unidentified flying objects. 422 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,960 Of course, he didn't say there's anything out there that is looking, I guess. 423 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:43,960 But it's curious to me that these are people who are once removed from positions of authority as we think of it. 424 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:51,960 In their official capacity as acting members of the government, they had to know what the government knew about this. 425 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,960 Now, as we know that they are retired, most of them join nightcap, I'll tell you that. 426 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:05,960 And they do it because they know that we are trying to get the government to reveal to the public the truth, whatever it may be. 427 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:11,960 It's a curious statement from the Honorable John McCormick, Speaker of the House, January 65. 428 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:19,960 And Mr. McCormick says, I feel that the Air Force has not been giving out all the available information on these unidentified flying objects. 429 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,960 You cannot disregard so many unimpeachable sources. 430 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,960 That seems to be pretty much it. 431 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:36,960 When the Air Force goes up to Hillsdale, Michigan, and comes back with a story about swamp gas, 432 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:46,960 I must say that I must be one of the most unobservant creatures on Earth because I've spent a lot of time creeping and crawling through swamps at night. 433 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,960 And I have never seen this in the service. I don't do this as a rule. 434 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,960 But I have never seen this alleged swamp gas. 435 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,960 I think I've seen them under pretty good atmospheric conditions. 436 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,960 Well, it comes with the red and blue lights now, you know. 437 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,960 Oh, I see. Is that it? This is something entirely new. 438 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,960 Well, the Michigan swamp gas are all out of the windows in it. 439 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:13,960 You know, and it's like Frank speaks in his book there of the galloping volcanoes on the moon. 440 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,960 I mean, these are among the rare type, but that's what causes those lights up there, you know. 441 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:24,960 Well, you know, Alan, the Air Force made a classic boo-boo in August the 3rd of last year 442 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,960 when they told all those tens of thousands of people out there in the Great Plains states 443 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:35,960 that they had been watching nothing more than four stars in the constellation Orion. 444 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:41,960 Well, the newspapers took offense at this because professional astronomers quickly pointed out 445 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:47,960 that that constellation at that time was visible only from the other side of the Earth. 446 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:52,960 So by the time this thing happened at Hillsdale, Michigan in 66, 447 00:39:52,960 --> 00:40:01,960 I had a collection of over 300 angry editorials demanding that the Air Force stop this nonsense 448 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:03,960 and tell the public the truth. 449 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:09,960 Well, then when they bombed out with that swamp gas story up in Michigan, 450 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:17,960 they literally blew themselves out of the business of being a credible source of explanations on UFOs 451 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,960 because they had completely discredited themselves. 452 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:29,960 And most of the moves that the Air Force has made since then have been moves in the direction of trying to restore 453 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:35,960 some measure of their former stature as a source of information on this subject. 454 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,960 But I don't think they're doing too well because last week they fathered one. 455 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,960 Could the UFOs be luminous flying ants? 456 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,960 How's that? 457 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,960 Could the UFOs be luminous flying ants? 458 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,960 I thought I heard you. 459 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,960 Yes, well, I don't really see how they could be luminous flying ants 460 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,960 if you're going to chase them with jet interceptors. 461 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,960 Because generally speaking, that would be pretty rough on the ants. 462 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:03,960 If you could find them. 463 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:09,960 One would have to admit that you could not catch a luminous flying ant with a jet interceptor. 464 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,960 How would you know when you had it? 465 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:13,960 I don't know how you'd know. 466 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,960 You certainly would commit one of the massive flybys of all time, I would judge. 467 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,960 And then they had another one they put out through an aviation magazine recently. 468 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,960 A theory, very careful with all this stuff. 469 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:33,960 A theory that the UFOs were corona discharges from high tension lines. 470 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:40,960 This too is one of the, could be in the swamp gas category. 471 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:49,960 You know, Al, in the years back, back in the 50s, the Air Force wasn't quite as talented then as they are now with their replies. 472 00:41:49,960 --> 00:42:00,960 But they explained this angel hair that had festooned itself from telegraph pole to telegraph pole downstate for several miles 473 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:06,960 as being a certain type of spider that had worked that particular night. 474 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:18,960 Now those spiders were so busy that the shop owners had to sweep away all this angel hair from their shop window, their doorways the following morning. 475 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:25,960 And had they known that by just leaving it for a little while it would disappear, sort of like if you have a heavy snow in the winter, 476 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,960 you can wait till July and then not have to shovel it. 477 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,960 But this was only for a matter of a couple hours and it was all gone. 478 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,960 A girl I know used to live down there near Columbus when this occurred. 479 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:43,960 You could catch it in your hands, your hands would maybe turn sort of a clammy cold and turn green for the time being. 480 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:49,960 But yet this was the spider that was working very industriously that particular night. 481 00:42:49,960 --> 00:43:01,960 Yeah, I think it's in your book that I read this observation, Frank, and that is the Air Force never asked for this job of UFO identification. 482 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,960 Yes, sir. That's right. 483 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:06,960 This thing was handed to the Air Force. 484 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,960 Actually, you know, the Air Force inherited the whole problem from the Army Air Corps. 485 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:21,960 In 1947 when the UFOs, the so-called flying saucer form, began to appear in numbers over the United States, it was the Army Air Corps. 486 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:27,960 And the Army Air Corps was completely flabbergasted by the phenomena with which they had to cope. 487 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:39,960 And they said on, they announced on July 3rd, 47, that it was nothing but a form of hallucination. 488 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:49,960 They couldn't have picked a worse day for the announcement because on July the 4th, the following day, about 100,000 people stood out in the streets of Portland, Oregon, 489 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,960 and watched 10 of these things maneuvering around overhead. 490 00:43:53,960 --> 00:44:02,960 And if those people were having hallucinations, their cameras were having them too because they could photograph them and they did. 491 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:08,960 And the Air Force, the Air Corps, was just simply befuddled with the whole thing. 492 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,960 But I think they were on the right track. 493 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:18,960 You see, at that time we were only nine years away from the wars and wells and these War of the Worlds thing, 494 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:27,960 which created mass hysteria and panic and induced quite a few suicides and some large, juicy lawsuits that had to be settled out of court. 495 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,960 And so the government was, the Army Air Corps was probably on the right track. 496 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:38,960 The newspapers were playing these things up day after day after day on the front pages. 497 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,960 And there was a growing tension in the public mind and a lot of excitement. 498 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,960 A lot of people were getting unnecessarily excited about this. 499 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:55,960 And so the decision to play it down until they found out what it was was probably a very good decision at the time. 500 00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,960 Then when the Air Force came into being on January 1st, 1948, 501 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:10,960 they had only been in business as the Air Force for seven days when they lost a pilot at Fort Knox, Kentucky. 502 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:19,960 There were three of them set up after this huge UFO, which was being observed crossing the state of Kentucky coming toward Fort Knox. 503 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:24,960 And these three planes were up and they were set up to close on this thing. 504 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,960 Two of them ran out of fuel and had to go back. 505 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,960 But this one Captain Thomas Mantell got close to the object and he said, 506 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:38,960 I'm close enough to see that it's spherical, that it's huge, that it's metal. 507 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,960 And he said, I'm going to try to close on it. 508 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,960 Well, he was never heard from again. 509 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,960 We presume that he perished up there from lack of oxygen. 510 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:52,960 Although this would be very strange for a veteran fighter pilot like him to make that kind of a mistake. 511 00:45:52,960 --> 00:46:02,960 At any rate, he died and they said that night at Fort Knox, they held a press meeting and they said Captain Mantell was killed in pursuit of a flying saucer. 512 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,960 The plane was found. 513 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,960 The plane was found, yes. It was pretty badly torn up in the air. 514 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:11,960 The pieces of it were scattered around. 515 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:20,960 This is another peculiar thing as to why that particular type of plane, which I recall was a P-51, would come apart even in a power dive. 516 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,960 Because they just didn't do that. 517 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:29,960 So the flyers tell me, I had a friend who was another, one of the other two members in that group and he said, this is for postures. 518 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:34,960 He said, you could die one of those things wide open as far as she'd go. 519 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,960 It was built like a locomotive. It just wouldn't come apart. 520 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,960 But his had come apart and it was pretty badly scattered. 521 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:44,960 He was killed, of course. 522 00:46:44,960 --> 00:47:01,960 But in 1952, when these things swarmed over Washington, D.C., in such numbers that the Civil Aeronautics Administration published a special book on how many of them were over Washington on those nights, 523 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,960 what they looked like and especially what they looked like on the radar. 524 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,960 They published a special book on the thing. 525 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,960 Well, the government found itself in a very ticklish position. 526 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,960 It was here dealing with something which it could not control. 527 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:26,960 Here was the government of the biggest nation on earth and the most powerful and the best armed, having visitors in the air over the national capital with which it could not cope. 528 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:28,960 It had to do one of two things. 529 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:39,960 It either had to admit this failure, this inability to cope with these things, or it had to pretend that there was no such problem while all the time it tried to find the answers. 530 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,960 I think that was, of course, the decision that they chose. 531 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,960 I think it was a good one at the time. 532 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:47,960 I don't think there's anything wrong about that at the time. 533 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:58,960 This was when the Air Force got the assignment to conduct all the investigations and to make the only public statements on UFOs. 534 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:00,960 No other government agency can do it. 535 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:08,960 And the Air Force was further restricted so that they could tell the public only that these things were conventional objects or conditions. 536 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,960 That restriction has never been lifted. 537 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:13,960 The assignment is still there. 538 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:18,960 The Air Force still has the order, that assignment, and they still have that restriction on them. 539 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,960 And I think the Air Force has done a good job within the restrictions. 540 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:36,960 But I think it's time that the restrictions were lifted and that the Air Force was permitted to tell the public whatever it is that it knows about these things and stop feeding us swamp gas. 541 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:42,960 What leads you to believe, or do you believe that they know anything more than you know? 542 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,960 Oh, I'm sure they do because they have had access to pieces of these things. 543 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,960 They may have had access to some very sizable pieces of the things. 544 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:58,960 They have spent, by their own admission, $10 million investigating these things. 545 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,960 I got a big laugh out of Walter Sullivan in the New York Times recently. 546 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:12,960 I'm sure they will tell for that old Air Force guff that all that they had in the investigation was one commissioned officer and a sergeant and somebody else. 547 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:21,960 Well, if that's true, what did they do with the $10 million, which they admitted five months ago, that they had spent investigating these things? 548 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:29,960 How do three men spend $10 million investigating anything, for that matter? 549 00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:39,960 Right over these microphones, some years ago, you know Admiral Hillinger, I mean, not Hillinger, but nice Admiral Herbert B. Knowles. 550 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:47,960 And I had Knowles on here and Knowles was in Washington at the very time that Frank's talking about when the UFOs were there. 551 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:48,960 July of 52. 552 00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:49,960 That's right. 553 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:56,960 And that's when Dr. Wilbert Smith, the late Dr. Wilbert Smith, the project magnate of Canada, was also there. 554 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,960 And Wilbert Smith actually handed two Knowles. 555 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,960 Knowles said this himself, Admiral Knowles. 556 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:10,960 A piece of metal two feet long curved that had been shot down by anti-aircraft fire. 557 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:15,960 This under the microscope, every little particle looked like a solar system. 558 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:17,960 It was a shiny piece of metal. 559 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:25,960 And Knowles said that, yes, it's true that about 10 days, two weeks later, it was a dirty brown, apparently due to our atmosphere. 560 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,960 Well, I have a statement from Wilbert Smith, who headed the Canadian investigation. 561 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:43,960 He said that this thing was shot, he was told by the Air Force, that this piece, which they gave him, had been shot off of a small UFO over Maryland, near Washington, D.C., during these July of 52 sightings. 562 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,960 And he said that this, they analyzed the piece that was given to them up in Canada. 563 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,960 They analyzed part of it and they found that it was iron. 564 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,960 And it was conventional iron by our standards with one exception. 565 00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:02,960 Instead of having a crystalline structure, it had a very fine globular structure. 566 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:07,960 I believe he said .005 microns. 567 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,960 That was the size of the tiny little spherical particles. 568 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,960 And he said he didn't understand how these particles hung together. 569 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,960 We can understand how crystalline structures hang together. 570 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:21,960 It's a sort of a felt-at-action. 571 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:28,960 But he said they couldn't understand how these tiny little globular particles of iron held together. 572 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,960 But he said other than that, that there was nothing unusual about the piece. 573 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:34,960 And it would have been the treatment of the steel. 574 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:35,960 Could have been, yes. 575 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:36,960 By the tempering process. 576 00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:37,960 Something. 577 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,960 I have a piece of metal that is not my own possession. 578 00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:42,960 It's in my possession, but I don't own it. 579 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,960 And this, too, is iron, reportedly from one of these. 580 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,960 It's so hard it'll cut glass, yet there's not a trace of carbon in it. 581 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:52,960 I've had spectrographic analysis of it. 582 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,960 Washington is just dying to get ahold of it. 583 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,960 I told them they could have it if I went with it. 584 00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:59,960 Was it later? 585 00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:00,960 It's very heavy. 586 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:01,960 It's heavy? 587 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:02,960 Very heavy. 588 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:03,960 It will not rust. 589 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:04,960 It's very shiny. 590 00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,960 It looks like it's been polished parts of it, or it's been cut. 591 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:09,960 Very, very difficult to cut. 592 00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,960 Takes a blade and a blade a long time to cut through a piece. 593 00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:14,960 It's a very curious thing. 594 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:21,960 I would like to know just what you think these things are, and just where you feel we're going. 595 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:27,960 Frank Edwards, in his book, writes of the next UFO phase. 596 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:33,960 And on the dust jacket it reads, it's unprecedented implications for the human race. 597 00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:35,960 And I think we're all pretty curious about that. 598 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,960 So we'll find out from Frank Edwards what he means by that, and then we'll open our telephones 599 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,960 and let you find out what else you want to know from Frank Edwards, 600 00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:48,960 author of Flying Saucers Serious Business, published by Lyle Stewart, 601 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:54,960 now available at better bookstores everywhere, and not so good bookstores anywhere. 602 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:58,960 And just about anywhere you choose to go, it's on the bestseller list. 603 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,960 Also, Mr. Earl Neff, who is with us tonight. 604 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,960 Mr. Neff is a Cleveland ufologist, lecturer and writer. 605 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:10,960 My name is Alan Douglas, and I just sit and listen, and I do this every night, 606 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:17,960 to my own great glee and financial pleasure, on WKYC, AMNFM, NBC and Cleveland. 607 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,960 Now, Frank, just what is it? 608 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:27,960 What new era do you look forward to, and what do you think these things are? 609 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:32,960 Well, let me say first, in answer to this double barrel question, 610 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:39,960 I think I agree with all the scientists with whom I'm associated in nightcap, 611 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:44,960 and so far as I know they are all of the same opinion on this, 612 00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:51,960 that these craft are spacecraft, notice that I don't say interplanetary, 613 00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:57,960 they are spacecraft, and that they are operated by intelligent beings, 614 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:04,960 that the ones who actually operate them are not necessarily the ones who conceived 615 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:09,960 and directed the program, and that they have been coming here for a long time. 616 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,960 I agree with Al Chop, the deputy public relations director of NASA, 617 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:19,960 that we have known for a long time that these things have had us under systematic surveillance. 618 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:26,960 Apparently they are not hostile, and apparently if they are going to contact us, 619 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,960 we are getting very close to that point. 620 00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,960 Does that answer your question? 621 00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,960 Sure does. I just thought I'd leave that go for dramatic pause, because that's quite a point. 622 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:39,960 You think we're getting close? 623 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:44,960 Yes, I do, and one of the things that makes me think that is the fact 624 00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:49,960 that each time these things are reported around one of our spacecraft, 625 00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:55,960 they come a little closer and stay a little longer, and this couldn't be accidental. 626 00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:04,960 You know, Alan, back in April, the 8th I think it was, of 65, 627 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:14,960 we had four UFOs come and follow one of our two men experimental capsules. 628 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:19,960 If they had just left the cape, left the launching pad, two went above it, 629 00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,960 one went below it, one went behind it. 630 00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:27,960 They followed this capsule for one complete orb of the Earth, 631 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,960 then off into space they went again. 632 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,960 Apparently they had learned their mission was accomplished. 633 00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:40,960 I don't know what their mission was, but their curiosity was certainly probably satisfied. 634 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,960 But I spent quite a bit of time very recently with Major Kehoe. 635 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:52,960 Some of the things he told me that particular day I have every reason to feel now 636 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:58,960 we are getting much closer than we ever have been before to a big breakthrough. 637 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,960 The fact that they are coming here in various 1968 models 638 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,960 makes me think that probably they have, like Frank said before, 639 00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,960 realized that we two are getting a bit further ahead in our technology 640 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,960 and they have to keep a little bit further abreast. 641 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:22,960 The ones that were seen in 52, the former Trent type of saucer, is no longer seen very much. 642 00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:27,960 But I would like to say this that for people who are seriously concerned 643 00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:32,960 in this area with learning more about this kind of subject, 644 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:38,960 that people who, like NiCAP and APRO, approach it very seriously 645 00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:43,960 and from an objective standpoint meet every third Saturday of the month. 646 00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:47,960 This particular Saturday will be that third Saturday. 647 00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:52,960 And I will show there for the very first time something that the public will not receive 648 00:56:52,960 --> 00:57:01,960 in book form until June of next year when the publisher will release the book. 649 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,960 It's a beautiful book that is being published in Washington 650 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,960 and rather has been authored in Washington. 651 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:13,960 And I've done the illustrations for them and I will on the screen this Saturday night 652 00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,960 at the Cleveland Nephology Project. 653 00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:16,960 Where are you going to meet? 654 00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,960 This is at the Kyahogis Savings and Loan Company. 655 00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:26,960 It's on Pearl Road, just one block beyond snow as you're leaving the city. 656 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:31,960 And we meet there at 8 o'clock and I'll show these 12 on the screen for the very first time. 657 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:38,960 And one of them I might say, Frank, has familiarized me much more with this marvelous story 658 00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:44,960 that you told so beautifully before, the one of the heifer raised in the air. 659 00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,960 Are these things you're going to show? Are they photographs or are they drawings? 660 00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:53,960 These are illustrations. These are drawings that I have made of the very early sightings 661 00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:55,960 wherever they occurred. 662 00:57:55,960 --> 00:58:00,960 And I feel that the organization, we're an old organization. 663 00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:07,960 In fact, I think it was perhaps one of the first organizations of its kind, of youthful groups 664 00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:09,960 to use the word ufology. 665 00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,960 They started back in 1957. 666 00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,960 I became their first chairman in 1958, served a couple of terms. 667 00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:21,960 And our founders are still with us. We're a good, solid organization. 668 00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:27,960 And I feel that the people who belong there, like C. Wesley Fitch, whom I noticed, Frank, 669 00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:31,960 you have credited in your book, who is a great person of friend of mine. 670 00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:36,960 These are people who are very serious and objectively approaching. 671 00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:38,960 He's one of the finest investigators in the nation. 672 00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:41,960 Who coined the term UFO? Was it the Air Force term? 673 00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:42,960 Yes. 674 00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:45,960 And it should be. It's the right term. 675 00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,960 You notice in my book, I refer to them as UFOs, unidentified flying objects. 676 00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:57,960 Only the very early ones, the 46 and 47 up to late 53 models, were actually saucer shaped. 677 00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:02,960 They looked like inverted saucers and they were phased out as the Air Force points out 678 00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:06,960 in its Air Technical Intelligence Manual in September of 53. 679 00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:11,960 The disc shaped, the saucer shaped things were being phased out and being replaced by a single 680 00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,960 and sometimes a double convex type of craft. 681 00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:19,960 And they printed the picture, which I carry in my book there, to alert their personnel 682 00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,960 to the fact that a new type was coming into use. 683 00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,960 This is a clear picture of what isn't there, is that it? 684 00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:30,960 Yeah, a clear picture of swamp gas, double convex swamp gas. 685 00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:39,960 And because of the different shapes involved, unidentified flying objects is a more inclusive 686 00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:41,960 and more appropriate term. 687 00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,960 Well, let me say that I think the term has also been beautifully glamorized. 688 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:51,960 It may be just another Air Force term for something, but I would suggest that people like yourselves, 689 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:56,960 Frank Edwards and Earl Niff, have done a lot to make it an intriguing term.